somersetdiscussion.myfreeforum.org

User Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 13 Location: Columbia, SC

Some more random thoughts inspired by the critique. More may follow.

1) "The majority of Devonians (a majority of about 100% in fact) have rejected the Wessex region". When did this happen? The majority of Devonians have never been offered a Wessex region. The Celtic Devon movement are fond of making extravagant claims to speak for the whole of Devon, but in reality there is no more evidence of this than for us claiming to speak for the whole of Wessex (which we have never done). I suspect you mean that 100% of the tiny clique of Celtic Devon enthusiasts have rejected it, which is about as meaningful as saying that 100% of Wessex Regionailsts support it.

2) The Wessex Society constitution recognises that the cultural boundaries of Wessex do not exactly correspond to the regional boundary and that there is some blurring at the edges. The same is true of the Scottish border, does that mean that Scotland does not exist as a distinct cultural entity?

3) "If you look at a map of Hardy's Wessex, you can see that most of the places in his novels are in Dorset", yes, but you will also see six fictional county names corresponding to six real counties. Hardy himself was quick to point out that his literary Wessex contained five other counties besides Dorset, and was not averse to changing the settings of his stories to get a better regional spread (moving 'The Romantic Adventures of a Milkmaid'
from Dorset to Devon, for example).

4) There is no attempt to "suppress Celticness in Devon", or anywhere else, we merely challenge the Celtic Devon Movement when they seek to rewrite history in furtherance of their aims. We would not even be aware of their existence had they not brought the fight to us via our e-mail discussion group, and even then, we were initially supportive of their attempts to carve out a distinct Devon identity. It is the Celtic Devonists who have constantly challenged Wessex Society's right to exist, or have at the very least attempted to dictate to us what we can and cannot believe, and who have tried to write the Saxons out of Devon's history.

5) "The usage of the term 'West Saxon' to describe themselves and the inhabitants of the Wessex region, is an anachronism", which is why we tend to avoid the term. We generally prefer the contraction "Wessaxen" which, while hardly ideal, at least goes some way towards removing the racist undertones you complain of. If you can think of a better term to
describe any inhabitant of Wessex, regardless of race, colour or creed, we'd be delighted to hear it.

6) "All this also begs the question as to why a self-styled cultural society is interested in economics". The Case For Wessex was a joint response by all three Wessex organisations to the Goverment's white paper on regional government. Wessex Society only attached its name to the chapter on cultural aspects of the case for Wessex, so as to keep out of political and
economic disputes.

7) Counties. In not listing Bristol and the Isle of Wight as counties, we are following the practice of the Association of British Counties (www.abcounties.co.uk) and the book 'The Real Counties of Britain' by its chairman, Russell Grant. I was going to pull up a relevant quote from their website, but it appears to be down at the time of writing.

Cool

"if you add this to the fact that the Wessex movement has given their
region its own anthem, flag, patron saint complete with saints day, are
calling for a parliament as powerful as Scotland's and have even been
suggesting creating a Wessex mythology". You have it backwards. Wessex Society was an unintended consequence of the Wyvern Universe, not the other way round. I never really intended to become the chairman of a society, my real ambition is to be a writer, and furthermore, a writer who creates his own mythology like my idol, JRR Tolkien. To this end, I have for many years been crafting an alternate history in which the point of divergence is a story by Tolkien where a traveller sails to the West to enlist the help of the Elves in defeating the invading Normans. In Tolkien's story they refuse, in mine they agree. One consequence is that England never gets subjected to the total unification imposed by Edward III (see the recent Guardian article cited elsewhere on this site) and Wessex retains a strong degree of independence. I contacted the Wessex Regionalists to get details of things like the flag, patron saint etc. in order to flesh out this fictional Wessex, only to find that they were more interested in the arcane workings of the South East Regional Assembly! But they had long been keen to bolster the cultural side of the movement and to cut a long story short, I ended up getting roped in to found a seperate society, distinct from the political party.

User Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 13 Location: Columbia, SC

Here's the quote I was after from the Association of British Counties site's FAQ.

"Q: Aren't some cities (eg Bristol, Haverfordwest etc.) counties in their own right?

A: There are, within England and Wales, 18 towns or cities which have, at various times, been granted charters apparently making them "counties" in their own right. These areas are collectively known as the "counties corporate". Such charters were actually concerned with the judicial arrangements of these towns and cities rather than their geographical status. The "county corporate" status has generally been seen as an extra dignity added to a town and has not usually been taken to mean that the town has literally been removed from its host County. For example, the General Register Office, within its Census Reports, never considered them to be so and always dealt with them as being part of the County in which they geographically lay. Numerous legal judgments found that the "counties corporate" were not "Counties in the ordinary sense of the term". This convention is followed by ABC. This is done without prejudice to the special status which many feel these places deserve."

Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 5:33 pm

Thanks for replying to my critique Nick and giving your opinion, I shall give a reply to your well thought out posting.

1. 100% of Devonians who expressed an opinion on the Wessex Region rejected it. Now, they may mostly have been Celtic Devon people, but a lot weren't and 100% of respondents is still 100% even if most Devonians don't care about the issue. How many Devonians have said they want to be a part of the Wessex Region? That is the important question.

2. Scotland is a nation with national boundaries, its own parliament and legal system, the Wessex Region is a collection of counties in southern England as decided upon by the Wessex movement, with no legal standing, no regional identity and no parliament. A regional identity, which you still haven't given any examples of, justifies the other two things that are otherwise purely arbitary.

3. Fiction is still fiction and Hardy did point out, as I quoted, that his Wessex was not real. You can't base a region on the fantasy writings of an author, else Barchester, Hundred Acre Wood, Greyfriars, Brigadoon, Darkshire and a host of other (semi) imaginery places would have equal credence, e.g 'Darkshire Regionalists'. Hardy was a novelist not a visionary.

4. They don't appear to want to write Saxons out of Devon's history, they state that the Romano-Britons (the so-called Celts) played a bigger part in their county's culture than is generally excepted. Did you actually ask the people of Devon or any other county whether they wanted to be a part of Wessex? Maybe that's why they are attacking you. I have a suspicion that people don't like identities that they aren't used to having.

5. Technically they'd be a Wessexian, but the correct term would be Anglisc. Wessaxen is a truncation of West Saxon.

6. "The Case For Wessex was a joint response by all three Wessex organisations to the Goverment's white paper on regional government." So that still means that the WS was involved in politics. Other than that, as I said before, the economic argument doesn't add up. If you could work that one out, you'd have a better case for the Government.

7. Does the Association of British counties represent the wishes of the people of the counties? Why follow what they say? Bristol, for example, has been a county since 1373 and Bristolians do not regard themselves as being from Somerset or Gloucestershire. According to the Department of Politics at Bristol University, "It was given a Royal Charter as a City and County by Edward III in 1373".
Beast Raban, I hope you are reading this. Very Happy

8. That's good that you've managed to create your own fictional universe and that takes dedication (I like all that sword and sorcery stuff!), but applying that in real cultural terms is probably not a good idea, as only hard core Tolkein fans would like to live in a real Middle Earth. You have done well to be able to found your cultural society.

We obviously disagree, but have much in common, my critique may have been a little harsh, but I would happily post this reply on my critique page if you don't mind.

Regards,

Ed

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:12 am

I'm confused! So should I see Wessex as a cultural, rather than a geographical or political entity? That seems to satisfy both your requirements? After all, one could easily argue for the existence of a Wessex culture - dialects, accents, and identification with mythic concepts of Saxon heritage? The Devon Celts referenced on the webpage stike me as far more romanticist than the Wessex Society - indeed most Celtic revivalists tend to be...

steve

Guest

Hello Steve,
Yes it is a bit confusing! I would say that there is a region that could culturally be called Wessex, but that term has almost certainly more to do with 19th century romanticism than any latent West Saxon identity. In my opinion the real Wessex covers much of Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire. Although I suggested that as a combination for regional devolution, I refrained from calling it Wessex to avoid confusion and it's not up to me what regions are called.

Could you please explain how "one could easily argue for the existence of a Wessex culture - dialects, accents, and identification with mythic concepts of Saxon heritage". What marks out any of the above things as different from the remainder of England? How is the dialect, culture or accent of Somerset more similar to that of Oxfordshire than Oxfordshire is to Buckinghamshire or Northamptonshire (the latter two counties are not inside the Wessex Society's proposed region)? Saxon myths were fairly universal throughout England and as far as I know there aren't any that could be called pure West Saxon ones, other than tales specific to specific villages etc.
England might well have been divided up into kingdoms, but they regarded themselves as English and shared a common culture (there were obviously variations).

I personally wouldn't go basing any modern region on some ancient people who no longer exist - Saxon as well as Celtic are cultural not racial terms. It is fairly obvious the degree of alienation that has been engendered by the association between 'Anglo-Saxon' and 'English'. Besides, the actual Germanic population was in a minority in Wessex.

Wessex is not a political or geographical entity as it has no political system other than the existing English one and its boundaries are totally reliant on the opinions of 'the man in the street', i.e. it is anywhere from Penzance to Brighton, or Cowes to Cambridge, or Hereford even. I would say for certain that the proverbial 99.999% of people living in Wessex would rather have an English Parliament than a Wessex one; that goes back to what I was saying about a common English identity from England's earliest years. Personally, I take all regionalists that claim to be 'Saxon' or 'Celtic' with a pinch of salt. I'm not a romantic in such matters. On the other hand, despite their romanticism the Celtic Devonians are actually trying to get better political representation for their county, they have the right to reject a Wessex region and is is probably correct to say that a Wessex parliament would exist for the benefit of Wessex, not its member counties.

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 6:43 pm

But why did you seek the ABC's advice in the first place? Why would you be interested in those counties political status, what's that got to do with their culture and identity?

User Joined: 21 Jan 2006 Posts: 15

I think Wessex is a romantic notion. regional identities are often not historical, and none is advocating racial discrimination or cultural imperialism. In the case of my beloved East Anglia, we define ourselves in opposition to London - certainly people in Norfolk and Sufolk do not conider Hetfordshire East Anglia, though people in Herts may disagree.

Wessex as an idea is obviously large and problematic - off the top of my head I'd think of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom, and the Hardy novels, but I'm sure there are other reasonable definitions. However compared with the problem which you face i looking at say "Where is Aquitaine?" all pales in to insignificace... The Aquitaine of the middle ages is not where the original Roman Aquitania was, and certainly not where the post 1964 French district of Aquitaine is -- they don't even overlap!

As to cultural hegemony as Steve suggests, I sincerely doubt it. However sometimes an idea can be useful, as the example of Garibaldi and Italy shows. Smile

cj x

User Joined: 21 Jan 2006 Posts: 15

This sounds fantastic, and not disimilar tou our own interests in alternate histories and in particular our playing of the tabletop (as opposed to computer) roleplaying game Ars Magica. (See
http://www.atlas-games.com/product_tables/AG0205.php for details)

I'd like to hear more about the Wyvern Universe! Is there a website, or have you published any books or fanzines on your conception?
Maybe this needs a new thread, but put it in this sectio fo rnow so I can find it!

cj x

Site Admin Joined: 21 Jan 2006 Posts: 28

Max Barnes's book, The Bristol Story, contains the following passage:
"We for the improvement of the town of Bristol and also in consideration of the good behaviour of the burgesses towards us and of their good service bestowed on us in times past by their shipping ... have granted by this our charter have confirmed for us and our heirs ... that the said town of Bristol with its suburbs and precincts of the same according to its metes and bounds as they are limited, to be for ever in future alike separated and in all respects exempted from the counties of Gloucester and Somerset both by land and water and that it be a county by itself and called the county of Bristol". The italics are mine, thanks Beast Rabban.
That Charter was approved by Act of Parliament in November 1373: http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/to...rilegium/government/gvcons07.html
There is also this Wikipedia article on the status of county corporate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_corporate
As they were scrapped in 1888, you'd think that any city with that status would've reverted to its traditional counties. Bristol didn't and with the end of Avon it went back to being a county in its own right, as shown on this map of ceremonial counties: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_counties_of_England. You will also notice that the Isle of Wight is also a ceremonial county and not part of Hampshire.
Therefore the Wessex Region does indeed cover ten counties. QED

Ed Smile

User Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 13 Location: Columbia, SC

There's an article at http://alt-tolkien.com/r3wyvern.html, but bear in mind that it is nearly 10 years old, and I'd probably write it a bit differently if I were to do it now.

User Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Posts: 13 Location: Columbia, SC

You can use the ceremonial counties if you like, we chose to use the ancient, or geographic counties. To me it is a matter of personal preference and not worth starting an argument over, but I like the eight-shire definition - for one thing, it involves less typing when you have to list the buggers!

Site Admin Joined: 21 Jan 2006 Posts: 28

How very true! Ed Very Happy